On this episode of Okay, Computer. Dan speaks with tech journalist Kara Swisher about her exit from the New York Times for a new role with Vox Media (0:54), Mark Zuckerberg’s huge bet on the metaverse and the future of Meta/Facebook (5:17), Kara’s recent interview with VC heavyweight Chris Dixon on the outlook for Web3 (10:22), if FTX’s Sam Bankman-Fried is becoming a Warren Buffett-like lifeline for the crypto industry (13:36), crypto likely becoming more centralized (14:13), Elon Musk’s curious silence on Twitter (16:42), whether Amazon CEO Andy Jassy will overcome the challenges facing the company (22:43), Kara’s push to cover the existential problems from climate change (24:48), and the impact Peter Thiel and other Silicon Valley influencers are having on politics (27:00).
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT:
Dan Nathan: [00:00:38] Current Ad. Welcome back to okay computer. I am dan nathan. I am joined with the illustrious kara swisher. She needs no introduction to our listeners. Kara, welcome to okay computer welcome back to. Okay computer. [00:00:49][11.0]
Kara Swisher: [00:00:49] Thank you. You still have this name of it. Okay. [00:00:51][2.0]
Dan Nathan: [00:00:52] Computer Do you still like the name or. [00:00:53][1.5]
Kara Swisher: [00:00:53] No, I never did, but good. [00:00:55][1.5]
Dan Nathan: [00:00:55] Enough, right. Listen, so Kara is obviously the host of Sway on The New York Times. She’s also an opinion writer there. And listen, I got into podcasting. I think the first podcast I ever listened to was Recode. You have been an innovator in digital media for years. Obviously I use the term illustrious. You’ve been at the forefront of tech reporting for over a couple of decades, but you made some kind of big news because you sold Recode in 2015 to Vox. You’ve been doing a podcast Pivot for years there, but you’re going back to Vox. Talk to us a little bit about that move back. [00:01:27][31.7]
Kara Swisher: [00:01:28] I mean it’s interesting, I’ve never left first of all, like I was doing Pivot and Pivots, a very big podcast. So it’s actually bigger than any of them, the podcast universe, it’s the one who makes the most money. And it’s really we have a fan base that’s just exploding now. For some reason there’s a real interest in pivot. And so I wanted to focus a lot more on Pivot for one, because it’s really promising in terms of other ancillary things like a premium service or TV newsletter. There’s all kinds of things that pivot has not done at all. And already a good business is a podcast business, a premium version of it, specific ones. And so I can’t really focus on it when I have another one there. And so what that was one issue is that pivot is really exploding and the numbers are very obvious that you could watch it. Sway was growing well, it was going well, but I had a lot more control over Pivot. So that’s one of the reasons. And the second thing is I really wanted to own my own IP and you can’t do that in a big media company except for Fox. And so one of the issues was owning my IP and having most of the control over data and staff and budget and revenue. And so that’s one other thing. I’ve always been an entrepreneur and had control over that I have with the conference and everything else. And so I just was as much as I love The New York Times, they don’t give their staff control over anything. And so it’s fine. That’s the way they work. But I just was more entrepreneurial, especially when I do live things or expansion. So I couldn’t really do much with the product without getting lots of bouquets from people. And as you know, I don’t like speaking bouquets and I’m not one who really solicits okays. I just go ahead and do it. And so it’s a great place to be. I had a great run there for five years of writing. I had a lot to say I wanted to say about tech in that form because I think it had impact and it obviously has. People have changed their opinions of Facebook and some of the others, I think due to some of our writing there. And I did want to sort of make the interview higher level and switch it out from just tech, which I did there. And so there’s going to be a new podcast and interview podcast at Vox, I guess, but with Vox that we’re going to be making together. And I brought over someone who produced Sway with me to do that because she’s also very entrepreneurial. And so we’re going to be looking at TV and a bunch of other things, video and stuff like that. [00:03:32][124.8]
Dan Nathan: [00:03:33] Yeah, well, it is amazing when you think about, for instance, my 79 year old mother would see you on CNBC, on MSNBC and other TV, but she wouldn’t be a reader of your Recode blog, but she used to see you on the opinion page. And I think that it is appropriate when you think about all the palpitations that we’ve seen in media and digital media that her finding you on The New York Times is likely to help her find you and other places going forward. And I think that’s really important. I think some of our listeners forget I mean, you’re at the forefront of this digital transformation of media, because I remember all things digital being one of the first blogs. [00:04:09][36.4]
Kara Swisher: [00:04:10] It was the first, yeah. Everyone’s like, Substack. I’m like, We did that already. It was interesting. I mean, it’s a different business model, obviously, and I have a lot of regard for Substack and what it’s doing, but we were doing that very early. We did that within the Wall Street Journal. Remember, I worked at The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times. So it’s not like I hate old media in any way. I think they’re great. You know, within the journal back then they weren’t entrepreneurial enough and we left. So that’s why we left, is they didn’t want to expand our all things franchise. I thought they were cheap about that myself and they decided to do that daily. If you remember, it was a disaster. We felt that all things franchise was really interesting, but they decided not to do it. And at some point I don’t like to ask permission. I’d rather ask forgiveness and not in fact, I don’t even want to ask forgiveness. [00:04:50][39.6]
Dan Nathan: [00:04:50] You don’t ask for forgiveness. I think the history of Recode was asking all of the tough questions interview after interview, and I think it really spawned this whole industry. I guess College of Creators basically saying, Hey, listen, if I have something to say, I’ll find a way in which to say it. But I think what you’re very unique about your situation has always been that the people in largely men in tech were in business, their willingness to talk to you and have you ask them the tough questions they know it’s going to be asked. And I maybe this was a bit of a warm up. I don’t know if you saw mark zuckerberg with Jim Cramer the other day. He did not sweat. [00:05:24][34.0]
Kara Swisher: [00:05:25] Cara I’m pretty easy interview. It’s just. [00:05:28][2.7]
Dan Nathan: [00:05:28] Like. No, well, listen, I mean, I think from Jim’s viewers, what they might be really interested is like a better description of what the pivot of the name of the focus of the company. He means it how they’re thinking about it. And I actually did think Mark did much better. I’m just curious, though, the one takeaway that I had from that interview is that the stock got basically cut in half from the time in which they announced. So it basically lost a half a trillion dollars in market cap. Obviously, Sheryl Sandberg recently left, and I thought that was a really interesting scenario because to be frank, I’m not sure that investigation on her way out is something that if everything was all cool, would have happened here. But I’m curious how you think about this. I think he did the best job of explaining what the metaverse means, at least that I’ve heard over the last few months or so. So he said by the end of the decade, they hope to have a billion users doing things in the metaverse and monetizing them. And again, here’s a company with 3 billion monthly active users. It’s not a far cry. [00:06:24][56.0]
Kara Swisher: [00:06:25] But what does that mean? Does it mean just trying Oculus wants? Does it mean. I’d like to know the specifics. He likes to throw out numbers. [00:06:30][5.5]
Dan Nathan: [00:06:31] It probably means commerce. It probably means monetize. [00:06:33][2.0]
Kara Swisher: [00:06:33] I’d like to know what that means. That would be my follow up questions. Like, does that mean one person who drives an Oculus wants or does that mean he loves to do that with the numbers? Remember, if you if you recall during the Russia thing, they’re like, there’s no instance of Russia on this platform. Right? And I called them up and I said, Do you know that? Or you just made that up? It was some numbers, 0.11%. I said, there’s no way you could have done a full accounting of your system at this point. And so they always like to do that. I obviously look, it’s where he wants to go. That’s why one of the reasons probably, Sheryl, it’s a very different environment. It’s probably a more subscription based environment. It’ll have advertising, I guess, but that hasn’t been creatively created yet. The stuff that Snapchat is doing is more interesting to me creatively. Some of the stuff gamers are doing are really creative. I mean, good luck. He does have anywhere to go, right? That’s the thing. The social network is starting to go down. [00:07:20][46.7]
Dan Nathan: [00:07:21] And that’s it, right? So they’ve been monetizing Instagram really well. E-commerce, I think is a big part of that. I think he did mention, which I think is pretty fascinating when you think about WhatsApp, they’ve really never monetized that. So they’re talking about a kind of business, a consumer monetization model. I listen, I think there’s a lot of things there. You mentioned SNAP, and I saw that SPIEGEL is going to be at your code conference in September. You seem to like him. I think it’s kind of interesting, though, that that company that is ready for this, a $22 billion enterprise value, which is kind of remarkable when you think about it, it’s a small company. They’re going to do $5 billion in revenue, primarily ads and Facebook or meta, whatever you want to call it. This year’s expected to do a 125 billion with over a $400 billion market cap. And so it’s just interesting that we still have the David and Goliath. And I think when you started reporting on the Internet 20 some years ago, I mean, a $22 billion enterprise profitable on an adjusted basis company would have been huge. Right. But this is like a really small company right now. So I’m just curious, how do they play those Twitter? [00:08:23][62.3]
Kara Swisher: [00:08:23] They’re all too small compared to Facebook right at this moment in time. The reason I like Evan is because he’s creative and the stuff he’s making is interesting. And most of the stuff I see in a Facebook is copies of other people’s and sort of pale copies most of the time. I haven’t seen that much that’s innovative out of them. And so that’s all the same thing with Microsoft back in the day versus Apple. Apple was so much smaller than Microsoft. Remember how small it was? A small, small. And I don’t mean to say Snapchat’s going to be bigger than Facebook. It’s not. That would be hard. But when Apple was in trouble, its products were still innovative. And I was like, they’re going to win because they’re innovative. And I guess you could muscle your way into any market and muscle everything and copy everything, but it doesn’t make you a great business. I just don’t think it. And so if they’re creative here, that would be great. Seems to be the same people. So there’s no fresh new faces there that I see, particularly with Sheryl leaving. But the same gang that’s hung around Mark’s basket forever is it sort of jockeying for position? And so that’s great. If they can do it, that’s great. I like the Oculus, as I’ve said, but it’s a small business. If you actually look at the business, it’s small and it’s a lot to weight an entire business on. Now they can hope, just like with AOL, that this other business just declines in a nice slow glide down. But down is where it’s going. Listen, they still have dial up customers at AOL. [00:09:39][75.9]
Dan Nathan: [00:09:40] Listen, Yahoo! Just got lifted out of Verizon media by Apollo. How about that? [00:09:44][4.1]
Kara Swisher: [00:09:44] They had a big presence at Khan Lion. I was there. I was sort of like Yahoo’s all over the place in advertising. [00:09:49][5.1]
Dan Nathan: [00:09:50] A lot of purple. Our friend Katie Stanton and was just named to the board. I don’t know if you saw that. [00:09:55][4.3]
Kara Swisher: [00:09:55] Oh, was she? Yeah, that’s the Apollo. Okay. [00:09:57][1.9]
Dan Nathan: [00:09:58] And it’s very interesting. Katie would tell you that her first job that she loved in tech was at Yahoo! Finance in the late nineties. [00:10:03][5.2]
Kara Swisher: [00:10:03] She was. I remember that. [00:10:04][1.1]
Dan Nathan: [00:10:05] So let’s see what they do there. [00:10:06][1.1]
Kara Swisher: [00:10:06] Know, they have a lot of data on people. They’ve got a lot of users. You could do something with that. I don’t think you can’t. There’s very few big groups of people on the Internet that’s valuable and you can make some cash out of it. Same thing with Twitter. It’s small. Let’s talk about small, small and unprofitable as Twitter. [00:10:21][14.7]
Dan Nathan: [00:10:21] We’re going to get to that through Ellen. But here’s one thing I really wanted to hit this, because you’ve been spending, it seems, a bit more time trying to figure out Chris Dixon Andresen on Sway a few weeks ago. And it was a really fascinating conversation, especially when you consider where crypto as an eco. A system or an asset class, if you will, was at the time. It’s bounced a little bit, but not really. And Chris is obviously, I think you just raised a $4 billion fund to invest in Web three. And your question really was, what the hell is Web three? He’s the one with his famous thread to kind of just find it, I think, going to start at 2021. And then what’s the future of it? And I think that this is really interesting because we’ve had this kind of war of words between Jack Dorsey and Marc Andreessen and Elon got in there and a bunch of these tech luminaries. But Chris, his comment to you, I thought was really interesting. I think this is the most important thing to counterbalance the power of the big tech companies. And I’m just curious and this is the thing that got Jack Dorsey snapping back in December saying, who owns Web3? It’s the VIX. And so you’re going to create the very thing that you’re trying to counterbalance. I’m just curious what you took away from Chris, his conversation on the topic. [00:11:29][67.4]
Kara Swisher: [00:11:29] Well, I think he’s on his back foot, right? Of course he’s on his back foot right now. Given the situation there, the numbers are really down and I don’t see them going back up anytime soon. [00:11:39][9.6]
Dan Nathan: [00:11:39] Wait, you’re already speaking, Kara, like a crypto folk when you say the number is down? [00:11:43][3.8]
Kara Swisher: [00:11:44] I’m not a crystal phobe. Just by being like, I don’t know, the anti cryptos attack me all the time because I’m like, I don’t know, maybe there’s some contract thing, maybe there’s some collectible thing, maybe there’s some financial things. Obviously, one of the things that a lot of the Bitcoin like Michael Saylor is trying to get rid of all the other coins. Right. Because they’re all most of them are Ponzi schemes, essentially. And so because there’s so many and it’s so Wild West, you’re going to have a lot of grift. And so what I wanted to sort of explore with him is how do you clean that up? How do you make it into a real business and is it going to be useful? Is it just a speculative asset? Is it a commodity? Is it like a stock asset? And so I think a lot of that has to be sorted out. And so I think people are comfortable when you’re like, I don’t know, I don’t know, I can’t tell. There seems to be some stuff here that many people I think are smart, find interesting. There’s also a lot of things that many people I think are smart find illegal and problematic and not scalable. And so, again, what I like to do is say, all right, well, let’s figure out where it’s going. People are so reductive these days, it’s really hard to have a conversation with anybody. And some of the stuff is really interesting and some of the stuff is clearly illegal. And now obviously all of its unregulated and even stablecoins that you don’t know where, how many dollars and what and how do they like, which is what I think about Mark is like a billion. What I would like specifics and what tends to do is these people tend to throw out numbers, whether it’s Mark Zuckerberg or the Bitcoin people, but they don’t tell you what the specifics are. And so therefore it’s a lot of hype until I actually see the actual business of it. [00:13:12][88.6]
Dan Nathan: [00:13:13] Which comes back to regulation. And you had Gary Gensler, the head of the FCC, at code in September, and you guys spent a lot of time on that topic. And, you know, is Preet actually interviewing, which I thought was pretty great. It was kind of surgical in a way. And he got to refuse to frame the regulatory path forward, which I think is one of the things that really frustrates a lot of practitioners in the space. But here’s one thing that I’m curious and you got to get him. Have you met this Sam Bankman-Fried? He is the founder of SGX, and he’s really capturing the imagination of both crypto and other folks. And I thought what Dixon said to you was really interesting is that this feels a bit more like, Oh, wait, some sort of big macro event with what’s going on. And so here Bankman-Fried has kind of stepped up as the kind of Warren Buffett, the space offering lifelines. And it’s really interesting because we talked about it a little bit on fast money last night. It was almost like the island of misfit crypto toys that he’s trying to be like this buyer of last resort and he may end up with a lot of crap, if you think about it, due to the transparency or the lack thereof. [00:14:12][59.8]
Kara Swisher: [00:14:13] Because it could be zillionaire, right? It’s the same thing going on with Binance. Suddenly that guy is under siege and I think it’s just the beginning of the internet and it’s not similar. So before these anti crypto people go after me, it’s similar, but not the same is how I will say it. There was a lot of crap in the early internet, a lot, a lot of crap, and then there was consolidation and ownership and they built walls around it essentially. And of course it got too consolidated and too centralized. And so this is a reaction to that. But I suspect this is going to get just as centralized in some fashion. And of course, there’ll be regulatory scrutiny because it’s money and governments are prone to give up that control very easily. [00:14:51][37.6]
Dan Nathan: [00:14:51] Yeah, I mean, all the on ramps are very centralized. And to your point, I think one of the remaining sort of pillars of the bull case for Bitcoin in particular is this kind of censorship resistance. And I do think it’s funny that some of the loudest voices on this topic over the last few years have really gone quiet. So when we come back, we’re going hit all things Elon Musk. So stick around. Hey, Dan, what up, guy? You’re into this fintech. What’s all this I’m hearing about current? You’re going to like this guy. Current is a fintech company that’s completely disrupting traditional banking. Wait a second. Does that mean I don’t have to drive to the bank anymore? Yeah, exactly. I’m a new current customer, and I manage all of my finances from one easy to use app. Well, I got to get this app, but where can I learn more? It’s super easy. Just go to current dot com slash oc. Okay. And download the app that’s current dot com slash OC. Current is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by and Visa Debit Card issued by Choice Financial Group Member FDIC pursuant to a license from Visa USA. It can’t be used everywhere. Visa debit cards are accepted. Hey, it’s Dan here. I’m excited to tell you about a $1 billion app that’s disrupting the way people like you and me invest. It’s called masterworks. They offer investors access to an estimated $1.7 trillion alternative asset that was once only accessible by the ultra wealthy. I’m talking about blue chip art. Blue chip art has seen price appreciation that’s outpaced the S&P 500 by 164% from 1995 to 2021. And The Wall Street Journal recently called it among the hottest markets on earth. It’s no wonder the ultra rich like Jeff Bezos recently sold tons of Amazon stock and bought more art. And now you can chew with the art investment app called Masterworks Dot IO join over 300,000 members for free on masterworks dot io just go to masterworks dot art slash okay. Computer okay. Why that’s masterworks dot art. Slash okay. Computer See important disclosures at masterworks dot IO slash disclaimer Taboola uses AI to power recommendations for many of the world’s top publishers and cell phone manufacturers. You know, taboola if you ever went to websites like CNBC or USA Today, when you finish reading an article, it’s that tricked out recommendation engine pointing you towards a digital content you will like. They also help brands reach over 500 million daily users, which makes them a compelling alternative to Facebook and Google ad platforms. Taboola has long term exclusive partnerships with publishers, which means they help people like you and me discover content outside of social media. Taboola is a founder led company that is traded as tbla on the Nasdaq. Find out more about their mission at taboola dotcom. So have you checked on Elon? I suspect you have his phone number. [00:17:36][165.2]
Kara Swisher: [00:17:37] I do. He’s not talking to me right now. He tends to go in and out of touch with me. [00:17:40][3.2]
Dan Nathan: [00:17:40] Was not talking to anybody. He hasn’t tweeted in a week, which I think is really interesting. Well, I have one theory that maybe because his tweets drive so much engagement on the platform, maybe he’s trying to get them to miss the quarter badly so he can negotiate the price lower. No, that’s not dumb. I know. I’m just leaking a hot picture. [00:17:56][15.6]
Kara Swisher: [00:17:56] The last thing he tweets, gas price. It’s probably $2 over most people’s gas prices. So he’s signaling anti Biden ism just because Biden didn’t hug him. That seems to be that. And then the birth rate, I’m not sure what he’s doing around the birth rate. [00:18:09][12.3]
Dan Nathan: [00:18:09] But I guess the main point is he hasn’t tweeted in a week and he was very, very active. And so he’s had a bad month, if you will. He started out in early June by saying he has a super bad feeling about the economy. That was June 3rd. He had the back to the office decree where it caught a lot of steam. [00:18:26][16.8]
Kara Swisher: [00:18:26] And he was speaking to Twitter and then he spoke to Tesla people about his back to office. Maybe he’s decided to shut up a little bit. Probably a good idea. [00:18:33][6.8]
Dan Nathan: [00:18:34] The S.E.C. at one point did have some sway, if you will, over his tweeting, if you recall. But then on June 12th, he said something that the company had a very tough quarter. He was trying to rally the troops a little bit. Then he said and I think this was even around the same time that the Giga Berlin and Austin were money furnaces. And it really goes on and on. Now, here’s the one, and I want to get your take on this. So he voted for this woman, Myra Flores, who is a pusher of Q and on conspiracy theories. This is a special election in Texas for Congress. Okay. She’s pushed a whole host of just Jan six conspiracy theories. The list goes on and on. So we said the first Republican you ever voted for and then responding to a Twitter user, he said he’s leaning towards voting for DeSantis that you and I have talked about to Santos in Florida. I mean, there’s a bunch of funny business going on there with obviously Disney and a whole host of other. I mean, what about this hard turn by him? It just seems like something that is not going to be particularly attractive to Tesla customers. Okay. The Tesla stock is down 40%. It was over $1,000,000,000,000. [00:19:38][64.4]
Kara Swisher: [00:19:39] Yeah, I don’t think that’s why. [00:19:40][1.2]
Dan Nathan: [00:19:41] Well, a lot of the acceleration to the downside. Now, granted, you could say that there was a lot of weakness in the overall market, but really started around his Twitter turn. And I’m just curious your thought on that. [00:19:50][9.2]
Kara Swisher: [00:19:50] He goes up and down. This is just my personal experiences. One year he didn’t talk to me the whole year and then he suddenly got really friendly. I don’t know. He goes up and down. I don’t think we really care about what he thinks about most things. And I thought he went a little overboard on Twitter. Like, I don’t really care what you think about corn. That’s what it felt like. Like, really, you’re weighing in on this, the political stuff. I think he was quite, I would say, justifiable and being irritated by the Biden administration for not acknowledging his credit around electric cars. They kept having Mary Barra and others at the White House. [00:20:20][29.6]
Dan Nathan: [00:20:20] What does it say about him as a leader, though? [00:20:22][1.6]
Kara Swisher: [00:20:22] Well, he’s just mad. He is a pioneer. [00:20:24][1.5]
Dan Nathan: [00:20:25] But he’s going to carry on for months and months. [00:20:26][1.8]
Kara Swisher: [00:20:27] Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. And then he’s been I guess he must be hanging out with Peter Thiel and that gang. And so he got a little red pilled on the on the the stuff. I think people. [00:20:35][7.9]
Dan Nathan: [00:20:35] Who fired him from PayPal 20 years ago. [00:20:37][1.5]
Kara Swisher: [00:20:37] Who knows who’s around him? I don’t think his family loves this Twitter thing. That’s what I heard. The family’s like, get the hell out of there. You know, sometimes you get narcissistic and grandiose and then you realize what’s happened, I guess. I don’t know. I just it’s hard to be him. I suspect he’s self acknowledged. She’s got some issues, not mental, but he has some troubles. Someone who’s spent a lot of time with them really said he’s in his demon week. And I was like, I knew what that meant because I’ve been the subject of one of his demon things. I got a lot of crazy emails at one point, but then he was nice. And so I think the problem Iran has is that everybody’s staring at him and he also likes attention and therefore you do a lot for attention. And I think ultimately underneath visionary Amazing Brain has done astonishing things around space and cars and things like that. I could use a whole lot less of his pontification on free speech because I think it’s hypocritical in many instances. Don’t say anything at my company, but you should be able to say what you want. You should hush on that. But anyway, he’s a mixed bag and we’ll see if seems to have to pay this amount for Twitter. Maybe they’re not playing along with his wanting a lower price and then he’s got to figure out a way to get out. If he has to pay that price, that’s a crazy price to pay for something that’s worth half as much. [00:21:46][69.4]
Dan Nathan: [00:21:47] While to your point, it’s a $30 billion enterprise value right now, it’s going to be much higher if he does pay 50 for 20. And going back to your point about SNAP, this is a company that’s basically growing revenues faster, monetizing better same revenue base that has a $22 billion enterprise value. The cost makes no sense. I do want to hit one thing really quickly. So your point about free speech is a really important one, right? And this was a tweet from a Chinese Twitter user back on April 25th after I think Musk made his bid for the company. And it was talking about Tesla’s second largest market behind the U.S. in 2021 was China. Chinese battery makers are the major supplier for Tesla. It goes on and on. Jeff Bezos, quote, tweeted that and he said, interesting question. Did the Chinese government just gain a bit of. Leverage over the town square? Well, it is trolling, but I think that you could say the same thing that you just said about Musk as a visionary as this Space Rockets is that you could say about Bezos and you don’t have all the drama. [00:22:43][55.8]
Kara Swisher: [00:22:44] Well, a little. [00:22:44][0.8]
Dan Nathan: [00:22:45] Bit. You don’t have the conflict of potential interest that you do with the Chinese. And so to me, I think the free speech. [00:22:50][5.0]
Kara Swisher: [00:22:50] Thing gets a lot of products from China. Be kidding, because a lot of products from China. Jeff Bezos is always just slapping at Elon and back and forth. And he did that in that interview with me. A lot of penis jokes are on the rockets and so a lot of them should stay off Twitter, maybe because they’re not any smarter than you or I. Jeff Bezos tends to like to show, Oh, look, I was right. Every time someone tweets a Amazon.com thing, he’s like, this is just now I have this old Businessweek framed as a reminder of the risky bet that Wall Street disliked was a website which generated revenue more than $62 billion year. That’s like a humblebrag. They were wrong. Looks like it. So it seems like you’re one of the world’s richest men. You don’t need this much love. Okay. [00:23:29][38.7]
Dan Nathan: [00:23:30] Yeah, I think he just needs a hug, as I keep saying here. [00:23:32][2.2]
Kara Swisher: [00:23:32] Yeah, I like Andy Jassy. [00:23:33][1.3]
Dan Nathan: [00:23:34] Yeah. Well, let’s talk about that for a second. Okay. That’s really interesting. So Andrew Jassy took over, he ran AWB. This was also in the early days of AWB and you probably remember you’re probably reporting on a lot. This was a very controversial turn for this company that had not been making profits, had been pushing them back into these other sorts of things. And if they didn’t have AWB right now, literally this company, the retail operations are being valued at nothing. So the stock Amazon topped out the week that Bezos handed over the reins to Jazzy. It was down at its lows. Nearly 50% is down about 40%. It’s massively underperforming its mega-cap peers Microsoft, Apple and Google all down about 20%. So my question to you is, I know Jad, who’s been at your events, I’m sure you’ve gotten to know him. Are we going to see the sort of succession that we saw with Tim Cook at Apple, with Satya at Microsoft? Was Sunder a Google? Because all of those over the last decade, let’s call it, have been massively successful. And in some ways the jazzy handover might be setting the stage for the next big move. Because I think about this, there was an article in one major publication last week that Jassy has to now fix the overexpansion of Bezos, which I thought was funny. There’s been some missed execution. [00:24:46][72.2]
Kara Swisher: [00:24:47] Well, let me just say, I don’t blame Jassy for this. Look, it started to go up like crazy. This is maximum. It was in the nineties and March 2020 when the pandemic started, and then it went crazy upwards to like 188 in July of 2021, and now it’s down back to the 109, not the nineties, but 109. It’s where it was. And so that was a pandemic spike because everyone was using Amazon. So I don’t particularly blame Andy Jassy for anything. Now then they are facing headwinds of more labor. They’ve got to be spending on labor, they’re going to have to deal with recycling and that kind of stuff. They’re going to deal with regulatory issues. He’s inheriting a lot of more difficult things, but I don’t blame him at all. He did a great job with us, thank God for Andy Jassy. So a lot of what he’s doing is cleaning up from the pandemic expansion, which he’s not responsible for. [00:25:34][46.9]
Dan Nathan: [00:25:34] That’s right. Well, here’s one for you, because I know that you’re a very proud mom. And you and I both have kids around the same age or older that are mid to late teenagers like mine. And I’ve read and listened to you for years and years. And oftentimes when you’re talking about consumer internet or social, you did so through the lens of your boys. You channeled their sort of stuff. And I always thought that was really interesting because I would do the same with my kids. And a lot of it was around that confluence of social in mobile. And now you have these beautiful additions to your family, to little kids. What do you think going forward? I found your interview with John Doar about climate check fascinating on Sway. And how do you think the next phase, the next 15, 16, 17 years of the tech coverage that you have, thinking about it through the lens of your young kids now, it might be just totally different. We might be be focused on these really big problems here. [00:26:26][51.1]
Kara Swisher: [00:26:26] Sure. You know, I don’t know. I’m worried about climate because of my young kids. I’m worried about democracy because I have young kids. I have never thought about leaving this country. And so first time I’m like, oh, god, if this crazy Supreme Court keeps misbehaving, I’m worried for my marriage. I’m worried for and I don’t say that lightly. I’m not one of these. I’m going to go to Canada kind of people. But Lord, I don’t want my daughter to be in a country that this is how they treat women when the rest of Europe is great or the rest of the democratic world is great on these issues. So I think about that a lot. And then of course, obviously climate change is the most important issue, which is why I had John on. And so I’m going to be doing much more of that because how to solve this problem is really significant. And so I think about it not just for my younger kids, but my older kids too is not going to be here. You’re not going to be here, but they’re going to have to deal with what we’re doing here. And so you see a lot of these climate emergencies and and you go, ha, this is going to be a challenge for a very long time going forward. It’s something I share with Elon Musk. I think he saw that very early. He was there that last time. He was sort of losing his mind. It was because he felt Tesla had to succeed and so did his space endeavors because. He thought the world essential crisis was happening with climate change, and I agreed with him. I thought he was a little bit over the top. But now I see. Okay, I see why his concern was. And so anyone who is he has a lot of kids too, by the way. I think anyone who has kids and thinks about it almost continually about what the world will be like for them when they’re older and their children to. [00:27:53][86.5]
Dan Nathan: [00:27:53] It is obviously an existential problem. I think that your conversation with John Doar, who’s obviously legendary DC, he said to you it needs to become a top two priority for voters here. And I guess I wonder and it brings me back to Musks and maybe it’s just a fad, but this political turn and that article in the Washington Post from a couple of weeks ago about Peter Thiel helping build big tech, now he wants to tear it all down, that libertarian bent that we’re seeing in a lot of these tech billionaires, it actually doesn’t, in my opinion, advanced those sorts of poses. [00:28:24][30.3]
Kara Swisher: [00:28:24] I think there’s a difference between Peter Thiel and Elon Musk. Well, he’s a financier is what he is. He’s like the modern day version of J.P. Morgan or anybody else who like to manipulate through money, not a creator. [00:28:36][12.1]
Dan Nathan: [00:28:37] I love asking you these questions. I know that you are a in contact with all these people. I know you know a lot of their close friends. And I think the psyche around these issues are really important. I am worried about this handful of web one. And you talked about this a lot. They built this whole thing up and now they want to tear it down. And when you see people like Musk, when John Doar just said to you that he has advanced the acceleration of electric vehicles by five years and he’s pushing all of these major OEMs. And that’s great. Except though when he goes and has this political turn, I think it really does denigrate a lot of that progress because he’s appealing to a group of people that don’t believe in climate change, that they don’t believe in the same things that you and I do about individual rights is my applause. This is a problem. And he voted for her. In it, he starts supporting DeSantis. That’s a problem. Don’t think that that won’t come back on tech companies who want to be in Florida and stuff like that. So I find it very problematic. [00:29:31][53.9]
Kara Swisher: [00:29:32] Yeah, it’s problematic. I would agree. I think he’s has a different game going on. I think he thinks he can convince them. I’ve had him tell me that about Trump one time. I remember him saying around gay and lesbian issues, obviously he’s a support he has was when I spoke to him very strong one and he said, I can handle, I can convince him. And I was like, listen, Jesus, I’m sorry. This guy’s really quite an undesirable character and unsavory and unstable character. And so the problem with the right now, they’re sort of embracing him and that he’s the best thing ever. He’ll turn on them, too, when he wants to. That’s the thing. I’m sort of like, just wait 10 minutes and we’ll see what happens. I think eventually he will shift again, as he always does. He did like Obama. He did like certain Democrats. I just think he wants nobody to bother him. That’s my impression of him is that he wants nobody in his business. And so anybody who does that like a Ron DeSantis, he gets influenced by. That’s all. And by the way, so what? Let him do what he wants. It’s not my business. If you want to be a complete troll your whole life when you’re a visionary, and if you want to change your incredible visionary accomplishments and swim around in the mud for a while, well, I think that’s a shame. [00:30:43][71.4]
Dan Nathan: [00:30:44] I’ll just say this is that for all the advances that he’s made as it relates to electrification of automobiles and what he’s done with SpaceX and that sort of thing, I think he runs the risk with his views on free speech and what he wants to do with Twitter of really setting back the clocks on so many of these issues. And you just mentioned climate and we have gun control and we have reproductive rights and we have same sex marriage. I mean, there’s a lot of things that are tearing at the fabric of our country right now. And his voice and his influence could be used in a much more positive way that are affecting Americans every day. And so I don’t actually give a shit if he got hit by a bus tomorrow and I’m not wishing it on him, the electrification of auto would still happen. We’d still be moving forward with rockets. We might not have the same focus as Mars, you know. I mean, so my point is, it’s like he’s just one man and he has influence and I don’t think he’s using it in the right way right now. [00:31:31][47.0]
Kara Swisher: [00:31:31] Well, guess what? Never had kids. They never do what you want. You know what? There’s a lot of people and a lot of people have influence. And he’s not the only one. And what unfortunately, what happens we coalesce around a Trump or Musk and we think they’re that everything matters and they become this sort of Rashomon test on all of us. Right. So there’s lots of people besides Elon Musk in this world. I’m certain of it, and I’m certain there’s a lot of people who will help us and a lot of people will hurt us. So why don’t we focus on that? That’s the problem is we tend to like coalesce around one great leader. And it’s a mistake on our part to put so much faith. How much influence does he actually have versus how much we think he has? [00:32:07][35.6]
Dan Nathan: [00:32:08] Well, I probably heard you say this. I know you’re a comic fan. With great power comes great responsibility. [00:32:12][4.6]
Kara Swisher: [00:32:14] I think he’s acting like an asshole on Twitter. He should stop doing it, that’s all. Otherwise, get back to the good stuff. We love it. We love the good stuff. You on. [00:32:21][7.5]
Dan Nathan: [00:32:21] That’s a great way to end it. I really appreciate your time. I love chatting with you. I always love your opinions. I can’t wait to see what you do with Vox. You are not returning. [00:32:29][7.3]
Kara Swisher: [00:32:29] And code is coming. [00:32:30][0.6]
Dan Nathan: [00:32:31] I will be a. Code, September six. [00:32:32][1.7]
Kara Swisher: [00:32:33] I think you should be there. Let me just tell you, it’s quite a thing. [00:32:36][2.7]
Dan Nathan: [00:32:36] I was there last year. It was it was amazing. [00:32:38][1.6]
Kara Swisher: [00:32:38] You know, it’s amazing this year. Maybe you want to be there and you can tell him you think he’s a joke. He’ll give you a Rudy Giuliani slap on the back. [00:32:44][5.9]
Dan Nathan: [00:32:45] Yeah, that was amazing. [00:32:45][0.8]
Kara Swisher: [00:32:46] I was nearly pushed over. I was like, that’s a Staten Island. Hello? Give me a break. [00:32:51][4.7]
Dan Nathan: [00:32:51] Yeah, that’s that’s what they do there. That would be what Pete Davidson would do. All right. Well, listen, Kara Swisher, thank you so much. We’re really looking forward to see what happens over there at Vox with you. And we’ll check your echoed in the fall. [00:33:01][9.7]
Kara Swisher: [00:33:01] All right. Thanks to you. [00:33:02][0.8]
Dan Nathan: [00:33:02] Thanks, Garcia. Bye. Thanks again to our presenting sponsor Current and our supporters Masterworks and Taboola for bringing you this episode of okay Computer. If you like what you heard, make sure you hit, follow and leave us a review. It helps people find our show and we want to hear from you. Email us at contact at risk reversal scam, follow and connect with us on Twitter at okay computer pod. We’ll see you next time. [00:33:02][0.0]
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